Britain or Ireland? Neither nation, thanks

Them’uns are a rave punk duo from a rural town in north County Antrim (they won’t say which one). On 11 November (Armistice Day), they released a track titled ‘Amarum’, which is Latin for ‘bitter’ – inverting war poet Wilfred Owen’s famous ‘old lie’: Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori. But aside from the anti-militarist bangers, but what sort of ‘them’uns’ are Them’uns, exactly? And why is a punk band singing in Latin? We caught up with Jim from the duo to explain…

Let’s start with the obvious question: why ‘Them’uns’?

Well, there’s a cheeky nod to the old 1960s beat band ‘Them’ from Belfast – though we sound nothing like them, have zero sympathies with Van Morrison’s recent eejitry, and we’re emphatically NOT from Belfast. Then there’s the Norn Irn ‘identity’ bit. In this part of the world, them’uns are the others – we don’t take either side in the ‘two traditions’ carve up, so we’ll always be apart from the mainstream blocs seeking an Irish Union or British Nation (yes, you heard that last bit correctly). You might call us ‘neither-nors’, but not in the limp non-sectarian sense. We’re anti-sectarian anarchists.

Is it the ‘anarchist’ provocation that makes you a punk band then, despite all the synthesisers and electronic drum malarkey?

Provocation? Yeah, why not? When supposed counter-culturalists allow themselves to be sucked into the mire of nationalism – of any colour – they’re losing any critical edge they might have had. And, look, I know people are hopelessly wedded to their guitar bands, but synthesisers are by far a more democratic instrument. Synths and e-drums are punker than guitars, because anyone really can do it. How’s that for a provocation? And there’s a ton of distortion on everything, if that helps us retain some punk cred.

I’m not the arbiter of punk credibility! Let’s get into the new track ‘Amarum’. I can see you’ve lifted some lines from the War poets like Siegfried Sassoon, Charles Hamilton Sorley, and of course Wilfred Owen. But aren’t you losing Owen’s irony by going directly with ‘Bitter and shameful’? (And since when do punk bands sing in Latin, by the way?)

The internet killed irony dead! It’s not that people are dumbed-down or too stupid to get it; the online ecosystem is just so full of people arguing in bad faith. They strip away context and nuance, and irony relies entirely on context and nuance, so it’s just become useless nowadays. We have to say it plainly: ‘it’s bitter and shameful to die for your country’. The shame is not on those who die, but on the countries that send them off to be butchered. The bitterness is felt by those staring death in its miserable eye, and by everyone they leave behind. That’s exactly what Owen and the rest of them were saying in the First World War, right? It’s the same meaning with ‘Amarum’, it’s just as anti-militarist, but there’s no room for subtle poesy these days.

This isn’t a pacifist thing, and it’s not a ‘both sides-ism’ thing. But we need to show some anti-militarist spine in the face of aggressively asserted nationalisms – people get swept up in the fervour, alienate ‘other’ humans, and then deadly violence can be excused and even celebrated. You can attach whatever decorous ‘nobility’ you want to that, but we need to ask ourselves: who benefits from our martyrdom? Did you say you were going to send this to Freedom? Maybe we need to do a side mission on Kropotkin?

Well, there are a lot of resonances with the build up to the Great War nowadays. But maybe we’ll let him off the hook since he’s been dead for 105 years. Do you think Prince Piotr would have been a rave punk fan?

No, Goldman’s the rave punk, for sure. Kropotkin would be into post-hardcore – earnest but with barely concealed mainstream pretensions. Bakunin’s obviously a crusty. Proudhon fronts up a gruff pop punk/orgcore band. Landauer’s an emo. I could go on …

So is it true that you’ve got a PhD in Political Philosophy, then? Good to see it being put to good use there Jim.

No comment! Speaking of unlikely punk languages, we did do a song in Ulster Scots too. That’s probably more provocative than anything else we’ve said or done, which tells you a lot about the state of ‘cultural warfare’ here in the north of Ireland.

I was going to ask about that. I’m reminded of another Northern Irish ravey duo, Fun Protestants. You’re both effectively playing up this ‘identity’ angle – is it basically a proddy version of Kneecap?

Now you’re the one trying to be provocative! We’ve played with Fun Protestants once before – really dead on people, and I love the music, their album’s great. I can see why you’d point to a similarity, and I’d take it as a compliment. I think what Fun Protestants do is really important, skewering their own cultural background, and maybe in the process pointing to something liberatory and radical that runs through Protestantism in the north of Ireland. But again, I would worry that the ironic critique made by Fun Protestants just gets turned into blatant sectarianism by other people who won’t admit that there’s a progressive element there, or that their own ‘side’ is guilty of similarly regressive small-mindedness. Them’uns takes aim at both sides simultaneously – we have to, because as soon as you pick a side, the game’s over. Like, that’s the opposite of ‘both-sides-ism’, isn’t it? It’s neither-side-ism.

You’re reminding me of ‘80s anarcho-punk bands like Toxic Waste with that: ‘Choose and be damned’!

Exactly! There were ‘alternative’ bands flirting with nationalism/unionism back then too, of course – That Petrol Emotion and Ruefrex and some other bands spinning off from the punk scene. If it was tragic then, I suppose it must be farcical now.

Is that a stray Marx quote?

I’ve got a better one for you: ‘If you can’t laugh at yourself, I’ll be happy to do it for you’ – that’s Groucho.

Point taken! But I did notice a review in the luminary punk zine MaximumRockNRoll that described Them’uns as ‘British’ – where did that come from?

A lazy reviewer! We sent MRR a cassette tape (This is Rave Punk, 2023), but they only ever listened to the Bandcamp page – which had the location set to ‘Antrim, UK’, so the reviewer just decided UK meant Britain, and that therefore we were British. Of course we’re not. We’re from the island of Ireland (but if Ed Sheeran’s ‘Irish’, then we’re not that either, and we’re certainly not going about wearing a tricolour balaclava). But why would you expect a self-satisfied US zine reviewer to understand that sort of geopolitical complexity?

He didn’t even listen to the actual tape! There were different versions of the songs on the Bandcamp page – and one song wasn’t on there at all, it was tape-only, so it was obvious that he hadn’t bothered. He didn’t give us a particularly favourable review either (described us as ‘textbook anti-authoritarian’) which might explain why I’m so grumpy about it. Do better next time, Nick Odorizzi!

Yes, I feel like you’re bearing a bit of a grudge there, Jim. I thought the first two tapes were a lot of fun, if that’s any consolation. But the new song has a different feel to it. Is that fair to say?

Is ‘fun’ a back-handed compliment, Ian? But yeah, that’s fair. We had a line-up change earlier this year. Amy’s come in and plays some lead synth, which we didn’t have before. The e-drum set up has been stripped back to just two pads. And we recorded this one ourselves, so maybe it’s a bit more raw but more musically expansive?

We pretend to make a punk virtue out of capturing all the sounds live, rather than relying on production tricks – but honestly we were just worried that we’d screw it up because we’re not that clever at using Digital Audio Workstation software. We spent time getting the right sounds to come out of the synths and amps and microphones, and then just mixed that – there’s not even any equalisation on it!

I’m willing to award some bonus punk points for that. So, give us the plug then – how can people hear it?

‘Amarum’ is coming out as a digital thing with Do It With Others Records, and all their proceeds go directly to anarchist causes. DIWO do everything as ‘pay what you want’ – kudos to Marko! Two more tracks from that recording session are coming out as a DIY 7” vinyl release on 12th December, titled ‘Ballymetropolis’/‘Mouth Ulster’ – we’re playing a gig locally in Coleraine to launch that one. There’s a streamable version on Bandcamp, and you can pre-order the physical record there too.

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